Limestone Or Petro Wetsuits – Which Is More Socially Responsible?
In response to some marketing claims by other wetsuit manufacturers, Patagonia has commented at length on whether petroleum or limestone based neoprene is greener:
We have drawn the conclusion that both versions of polychloroprene [the main component of neoprene] have equally significant environmental impacts
Also interesting:
…don’t settle for marketing “greenwash!” Limestone doesn’t make a wetsuit more environmentally friendly.
So what makes a greener wetsuit? Patagonia says:
The biggest environmental gain, however, is efficiency”
It's pretty common knowledge that their 3mm keeps you as warm as a petro based 5/4mm suit, which sounds great. Factor in durability though, and the argument falls apart.
Almost all unbiased reports portray limestone neoprene (whether Patagonia, Matuse, or NinePlus) as very fragile. They are prone to rips which require panels to be replaced and at times, the whole suit is replaced by the manufacturer. If a 4mm suit lasts twice as long as a more fragile 3mm limestone suit, the petro suit uses 1/3 less material to cover the same amount of water time as a limestone suit. Chalk it up as a win for petro.
Have you ever had to wear an old a backup suit while your limestone wetty is off for repairs? I have. It sucks. Chalk another one up as a win for petro.
But what about the social and political problems with oil? Oil spills regularly ruin whole ecosystems. Mining limestone certainly has it’s social and political drawbacks, but how often do people fight wars over it? Does limestone’s market price ever affect entire economies? Chalk those up as three wins for limestone.
That looks to be a 3 to 2 win limestone coming out on top, largely due to the social and political issues associated with petroleum. Address the durability issues associated with limestone neoprene though, and it isn’t a contest.
Maybe they’ll work it out over the summer and we’ll all be in super sick, long lasting wetties that make us all look like steve zissou.
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May 7th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
excellent post! keep up the good work. very insightful and simple answers to questions we all have knocking around in our brain pans. now if i could get the patagonia suit in 1mm, i’d be happy.
May 7th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
How much of the world’s oil production in a year goes towards wetsuits? I’m not saying alternatives shouldn’t be pursued, but how much of an impact would be made in comparison to say, getting people into smaller and lighter cars? Or into hybrids. Even if wetsuits only make up a drop out of the barrel (sorry), I suppose it’ still a worthwhile endeavor just from an awareness aspect.
May 8th, 2008 at 7:50 am
Can I look like Steve Zissou? Really!?!?!? Ooh Wow!
May 8th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
I’ve had a Pata 2 mm for a year now. I rinse it off (usually) every time. I wear it 4 to 8+ sessions a week depending if we have swell. It is like brand new. Except for the booties. 2mm as well and are ripped to shreds on the souls in a matter of months. They were warm though, lol.
May 9th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
I’ve had two Matuse wetsuits. Both are in great condition without problems. Don’t know may others with Matuse suits that have any more problems then a Petroleum based suit. Now, it you want to talk about Patagonia, I’ve seen a shitload of failures. On my scale, the score would be 5-0 if you were comparing Matuse to petroleum. Please try not to drag Matuse into Patagonias gaping failure hole.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
Funny how a wetsuit thread really gets the blood up. Hope to see your wrinkly ass soon Brown.
May 10th, 2008 at 9:12 am
What, are Patagonia suits limestone or petro? What about my Billabong neoprene with smoothie material made by slave kids in Thailand?
May 10th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Yes, the Nineplus 3/2 suits do keep you warmer than petrol 3/2 suits but not true that “It’s pretty common knowledge”. I find most surfers, other than the progressives on this site, are stuck in a petrol paradigm. Their misconception is that petrol suits are more durable and better. Petrol suits are by no means indestructible, on the contrary, even after all these years and progress, there are plenty of them falling apart do to bad designs and yes they too will leave you stuck with your back-up suit. The parallel in shifting paradigms I want to make is Clark Foam and petrol wetsuits to Earth Concerned Options ECO.
So, with that said the wetsuit paradigm too is officially shifting this Autumn 2008. Nineplus has been working on this for the past 12 months and changed many areas of the wetsuit to produce a product that will become a leader in the wetsuit market as well as remaining true to keeping it black and simple yet comfortable and functional. The main changes have been the change from Yamamoto to a newly developed “limestone” based neoprene that they have registered as “Ecoprene”. The neoprene used has been changed from smooth skin to a “shark skin” to increase durability. This now means that the wetsuit is virtually “tear proof” whilst retaining use of smooth skin for warmth qualities. They have addressed many of the “warrenty” areas that need solutions and with this in mind they have replaced all zippers to highest grade YKK that come with a “life time” warrenty, the seams have been glued, blind stitched and taped and they have a no-quibble replacement warranty in place. Check it out for your self this October when the suits arrive in the shops.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
KAM, you get -5 points for using “The parallel shifting paradigms” and “wetsuit paradigm” in the same marketing sales pitch.
Limestone is just as much a non-renewable resource as petroleum is and I’d guess takes probably as much energy to extract from the earth. At this point quality and durability are as important as materials, if your suit doesn’t last you’re going to have to replace it regardless of the material.
May 14th, 2008 at 7:29 am
The only thing that makes a wetsuit greener is making it last as long as possible…
May 14th, 2008 at 9:04 am
also, petrol paradigm. at least you didn’t reference a sea change in wetsuit manufacturing. However, I’m glad to see the tide is turning towards eco friendly alternatives!
May 14th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Time to bareback it.
May 19th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
So, I spent Saturday surfing C St. (just north) and was about to head back home when I remembered that the Patagonia shop was a couple blocks away and it was still early enough in the day to swing by the shop and see if there was anything they could do about my booties.
I purchased my booties back in February and they are indeed “all that”. Incredibly warm, super elastic (I normally wear a size 10 1/2 shoe, a size 9 in the Oneill Superfreak, and a size 7 Pata booty!), and offer a very, very sensitive footing (which probably has to do with the soft rubber) that I have never been able to find in a booty (I need to feel the board and I hate the “shoe” feeling most booties offer). So, all in all, a great booty.
Except for the fact that the bottoms shredded up like it was nobodies business. They were all kinds of blown out on the soles. Just shredded. I went in the shop not knowing what would happen if anything. So, I walk up to the counter and tell them my situation. They asked me if I had the booties on me and what size they were. I ran to the car to grab them, by the time I was back from my car, they had a brand new pair on the counter.
No questions asked, no receipt, no forms to fill out, just “here you go”.
The only thing they asked me was if this pair let me down, to bring them back and they would change them out again.
They simply stated that they wanted me to be happy with my gear. They told be that if I ever had a problem with my wetsuits or booties, bring them in for an exchange. They said that they want people to understand that they stand behind their guarantees and also wanted athletes to trust their gear 100%. They also understand that their gear is still relatively “new” in the surfing arena and they still were working out some bugs and this kind of feedback was vital. If I had any other problems let them know.
I was blown away. I gotta admit, I would find it hard to believe that I would have had the same experience if these were Oneill Superfreaks or Buildabongs.
They made me an even more loyal customer with that move on Saturday.
I figured I should post this, some of you can appreciate a company that takes care of their customers, sometimes it makes spending the extra bucks on the equipment worth it.
I heart Patagonia.
May 19th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
I can confirm what Mo_Fo says is true. Unbelievable customer service, I bought the recalled front zip 2mm. I brought it back and they put the full amount back on my card.